As I said earlier, if I didn't think others were using a little help on the side, I wouldn't either. As it is now, not using a little help would be like riding the Tour de France in Lance Armstrong's era, if you weren't taking drugs you wouldn't last beyond the first mountain climb. ( I think it is pretty clean now). I would like to make the point though that you still have to solve many games without making a mistake to get a long streak, and that applies to (at least in my case) the majority of games that are just played straight. It still requires skill and concentration, the experience to look at the initial set and see where trouble lies, the discipline not to start throwing moves carelessly. I don't care if I and everyone else who grabs pen and paper or a pack of cards sometimes (if they are honest) gets tagged. It would be interesting. Solvers are not OK though, if they just hand a solution to you. Do they exist? I haven't looked and don't want to. I enjoy solving puzzles.

I appreciate the candor from GGG and agree entirely with TN's points made already, so not much to add. I'd simply say you can decide whether you want people like myself ignoring your name in the scores lists or not. All it would take is declaring that you're no longer going to use external aids and I would feel like we're actually competing in the same sport.

If a player only rarely uses cards or other aids, that's interesting and tells me you might be good competition hypothetically, but I have no way of interpreting what that means for your actual streaks. So I ignore.

I'm convinced almost all players follow the clear spirit of the game and do not use aids, and some of their accomplishments are pretty amazing. It's an online game so of course we'll never be sure whose streaks are all that they seem. The one disagreement I have with our approach on the site so far though is not explicitly stating the expectation that players play unassisted by external aids of any kind. For all it's worth, that is definitely my expectation for people attempting to compete on these lists.

[Edit to note than ElGuapo's post came in whilst I was composing mine, so I wasn't aware of his thoughts at the time - and thus my words are directed at G_G_G.]

I don't want to come across as arguing with you, but let me point out that what you describe is *almost* exactly the rationalization(s) TT uses.  He paints it as "I'm old; my eyes aren't good, blah, blah, blah."   He goes on to say pretty much exactly the things you did:  it still takes considerable mental processes, time, effort, skill, etc.  All of which is true.  But *every one of us* could say the very same things as rationalizations. 

We once (or more) had discussions about how many moves ahead we can think/plan.  Somebody, and I have no idea who, said something seemingly outrageous, like 30 (that may be too many), but we were all astounded, and several said things like 12, 15, or whatever (just approximating).  The point is that we all have our limit - and that limit will cost us games.  Using external aids extends that limit (artificially), and thus wins us games that our own brain would otherwise lose.  We can't know about the Tour and Armstrong, etc. - altho certainly there was more cheating going on than we know.  How much is there here?  Again, we can't know, but to ASSUME others are also "doping" seems extremely presumptive.  TT makes that same argument, too.  Which I personally think is flawed, but we can't factually know that.  And, imo, that still wouldn't make it fair to the others.  Again (as I've asked in the past), why?  Isn't the point to challenge yourself and see how you can do?  If you've got a streak of 99, and have a terrifically hard deal that looks possibly unbeatable, you get stuck, and therefore you pull out a deck to win, what have you accomplished?  You didn't beat the game with your own brain.  You had help.  That win may raise your profile in the standings - but at the expense of those who are playing "fairly".  Just pointing that out.   AND...............as someone else has pointed out..........using external aids is merely using an analog solver.  And that's accurate.  You have unlimited re-dos.  You're only limited by the time you want to invest. 

One more thing, if you'll indulge me/us...............when this was last discussed by you, you had come back from "the dark side", and had decided to quit using cards.  So.......what changed your mind again?  One specific game to prolong a streak? The drive to get to #1 in the 12-sum standings? in the 11-sum standings?  in the 11-12-13 sum standings?  All the above?   I really want to understand the motivations in this.  Again, thanks for your honesty, sincerely.

My motivation for doping is I became convinced that my competitors were doping, some admittedly and some not. You can't realistically win a competition if some or all of the leading contenders are doping without doping yourself. The only way to ensure a clean sport is through enforcement, which I would welcome. That would level the playing field. How to enforce it in freecell? I have an idea, but I need to think about it before throwing it out there.

You asked me earlier how *I* knew when someone was "doping", and I responded, with some waffling, that there's no way I can really know - unless someone states it.  So now your reasoning begs the question of how *you* "became convinced".  Was TT's openness about it part of your reasoning?

Also..............would still genuinely like to know what caused you to change your mind back - as per my last paragraph in my last post.   And again, I truly appreciate your input and insight on this matter.

Thank you ElGuapo, for your comment, coming from a person of your stature as a player and a contributor to this site, working over many years to improve it. Truly a resounding blow for the clean side, and thank you TN for your relentless pursuit of the same.

If all the leading contenders in 12 sum, 11 sum and 11,12,13 sum honestly declare that they will not in future use any means of solving games that allows for backtracking or whatever you want to call it, I will do the same. I don't know of any way to ensure compliance, however, but would welcome it if there were. I like fair competition. As a younger person I did compete as a masters amateur nationally and internationally in a sport. I never considered using any performance enhancing drugs because I thought everyone was clean except one instance when two competitors from a foreign country performed so far ahead of everyone that it was very suspicious. Kumquat - why are you even interested in this issue, you don't even seem to be playing.

Didn't we do this 'declaration' thing already a few years ago. That thread must still be around here somewhere if you're interested, unless it got deleted for whatever reason.

Uberman, we tried a bifurcated system in the SSC and/or the WWC with "pledges" made to play fair, on the 'clean' side.  I think joey was running it then.  It worked for a small number of weeks.  Then one prominent poster changed 'their' mind, and "un-pledged", and so it kinda fell apart. 

And G_G_G............."K o' C" is a stage name I concocted years ago to counterbalance another poster who, tho very intelligent and interesting, had become disruptive, even creating a persona known as "Peach-of-Discord".

On another thread, just over a year ago, I posted this accounting:

"Once upon a long time ago, we had a very interesting poster who created a secondary nick "Peach-of-discord".  She was quite intelligent and intriguing, but at the same time, occasionally disruptive and "rustled up some dust".  I created this nick to combat that..................and to try and be a conciliatory voice in general - part of that to 'conciliate' claims with the actual truth.  For quite a while, I was mostly (or so I think) successful in that endeavor.  (Some might disagree, but methinks that would be due to the intervening disruptions, not to the original purpose.)  So..........I still try to use this nick as a "truth teller" functionary, or reconciling things, as I can.  

And then just barely over a year ago, this:

"The idea was truly to minimize discord, and be a peacemaker; a dispute-settler. Well...........that worked about 10 minutes. No, actually, it was a positive force for a long time, methinks. And still..........I think I serve a purpose to "set things straight", as best as they can be, of course, which sometimes just can't be done.

That said, you are more probably used to seeing me as "TNMountainman", altho the K o'C moniker has been used quite a bit and virtually all here know it as a side gig of mine.  So *I* am not here to play games, altho I've dabbled just a smidge.  I'm here mostly as a reconciler, truth-teller, etc. - fighting for "truth and justice" as it were.  So this is not about me - it's about fairness in general, to ALL players; about trying to make this site as evenly-footed as my limited capabilities allow.  I have been criticized by some, and I know that since there's no way to totally control others' actions, my quest is just slightly akin to Don Quixote's.  But that's ok; as I've noted multiple times in the past, the struggle for justice often has an arc of years, decades, or longer.  We shouldn't shrink away from the fight, nor submit to the/your argument "everybody else is doing it".  

Apparently you've been a high achiever in your sport - something that requires intense dedication and all that comes with that - and thus your competitive nature is very strong.  And it's apparently that motivation that has summoned you to the dark side.  Well..........not that it matters, but I've also had some considerable success in not one, but two sports - altho only at the state level, not national/international.  The point being that I understand and know competitive fire.  But never have I thought about "cheating", as it impacts others.   My enhanced success would have resulted in my stepping on, or over, others.  So that competitiveness with which you're imbued is a noteworthy trait.  Until it negatively affects others.  And I kinda hate to say it like this...........but it's just like TT's quest/drive for self-aggrandizement.  This is not the Tour de France; not Davis Cup; not name-your-sport.  No money is involved.  Honesty should prevail.  Please, consider these things.  And also, I'd still like to hear why you changed your mind back to doping.  Thanks, truly and genuinely, for opening up.

K o' C said I should add this.....   At the moment, Denny has this "Thought of Deepness" on the play page:

"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality the cost becomes prohibitive. -- William F. Buckley Jr.

While there's certainly some truth to that (and kinda like "Perfect is the enemy of good enough"), K o' C is indeed an idealist, and is committed to those goals.  I happen to sympathize with that viewpoint.

Interesting So you K o' C are TNmountainman if I understand right. I normally spend next to no time on the discussion page so I don't know what response there was to the declaration thing.

Yes, that is correct.

G_G_G, stop encouraging KoC (aka TNmountainman). His passive aggressive crap  litters this board.

Go back to playing

The spirit of the game is intact here

The spirit of competition is what brings out the Toxic Negativity

"The spirit of competition is what brings out the Toxic Negativity"

This statement is accurate.  However, Denny *designed* it TO BE a competitive site, after all.  And.......I would argue, it is those players who choose to circumvent the intent of fair play with those choices - who ARE the source of the "Toxic Negativity".  Amiright?  Trying to get a leg up on the rest of the competitors by any means necessary (not specifying anybody or any specific method here) is the toxicity.  Seeking self-aggrandizement at the expense of others is NOT cool.

if you want competition play tournaments

If that were the *only* way to get competition on this site, then he wouldn't have set up the EXTENSIVE record-keeping, lists, comparisons, etc., etc. - just for 'regular' play.  Your 'logic' is absent on this matter, unfortunately.

is that really competition? i think not. you're not even playing the same set of games so the comparisons although interesting are meaningless

You know this..........but over time, the games average out, if played enough of one variant.  If player A plays 2000 games of 8x4, and player B does likewise, a valid statistical inference can be drawn.  Will it be totally perfect? No, but doesn't need to be.  The average winning percentages (or elo) of each of the 2000 game sets will be within some tiny fraction of a standard deviation of each other.  You're good with computers; you can check that yourself.

[editted]

ya... i'm good with computers... but not a statistician. But i do know enough to know that average, being what it is, is not enough to claim that any 2 equal streaks of the same variant are equal. Median might make more sense. And a bit unfair if an  unwinnable ends the streak.

I'm not at statistician, but I know some.  I'm not gonna do the math, but I think it's pretty obvious (famous last words?) that over 2000 games (or 200 or 100 for that matter), certainly for 8x4, the average difficulty for the games, at any particular climate, will be virtually identical.  For something like 10x1, it'll be slightly less likely to converge, but over 2000 games, it certainly will.  Annnnd...........part of my argument that winnables are of the devil (slight exaggeration, of course) is that back when I pushed for winning percentage to be the default listing criteria...........over time even the unwinnables will be accounted for.  And showing the inverse instead of the raw winning percentage gives a vastly clearer separation viewpoint.  But that never happened.  

But yes, those lists ARE competition, despite the games not being "identical", they certainly will converge to a virtually identical difficulty over a smaller number of games than you apparently imagine.  It stretches credulity for you to think otherwise.

Ironic footnote:  TT was a statistician "in real life".

a simpler example...

consider 2 sets of 3 games

2000 2000 500      avg is 1500

1500 1500 1500    avg is 1500

same average, obviously not the same mix of game difficulties

You can scale it up to 2000 plays if you like but same story.... avg may be the same but the game mix can be very different so not suitable for direct comparison.

But regardless  .... everybody seems obsessed with the length of their streak and loves to compare anyway

Lol. A little "cheating" in there shouldn't make a difference then. 

@ cellmate  --  Yes, of course 3 games is a different scenario.  Duh.  Which is the whole point of my example being hundreds or thousands of games.  You may not know statistics, but that it's a different scenario is pretty much prima facie obvious.  It is NOT the same story if one scales it up.  Not remotely the same story.

But you're getting way off the line of the discussion.  This site IS competition, *including* just regular streak play, and not only from tournaments.  And anyone who takes advantage of others by circumventing the intent of the way the site is set up - as a *competition* - is taking advantage of said others.  And I hate using this word (but I finally did with TT earlier), but it fits the definition of "selfish".  One who engages in self-aggrandizement at the expense of others is indeed that.

And not that it matters..............but I'm personally not obsessed with streak length - never have been - NOR this newfangled elo stuff.  I used to play for winning percentage, until I realized how corrupted the database was.  One can't help but be aware of those metrics, with how the results are displayed, but neither drive my playing.  Now I just play 'for fun'.  Sure, I like to win, but since there's no longer any way to have faith in the rankings - OR EVEN the stats for individual games..................I don't "try" (see/recall earlier discussion I had with james about that) nearly as much. 

cellmate, TN has the statistical inference correct. You are correct that tiny sample sizes can be misleading, but TN is 100% correct in stating that as the number of games played becomes larger, we can make clearer distinctions between the means. 

If you want a rigorous statistical demonstration of this, I'd be happy to provide it. 

From the "home" page.................Note the multiple uses of "compete" and "compare" (bold added by me)........

For the more serious Freecell players, we've got over 25 years of statistics from the best Freecell players in the world so you can compete with and compare yourself to the absolute finest.....

There are regular tournaments where you can compete with fellow Freecell aficionados. Tournaments are often comprised of mixes of other "variants" in addition to the standard 8x4 (eight columns with four freecells).

We track current streaks, best of the day, yearly streaks, and all time. Plus there's an Elo rating system so you can compare your overall solving ability with the other great competitors here.

TN, the topic is 12-Sum Streak Rankings. Your shift to your external aids crusade took it off topic.

Buzz, you missed the point  of my examples. Yes, as more games are played the average will converge, but that does not make the data sets equivalent (as demonstrated with my simple example). Altho average is the same, some sets contain more hard games than others ( or conversely some sets will contain more easy games than other). Median would be is a better measure because it at least partially handles the outliers. If you had to judge... is the streak where the set that has more hard games the 'better' streak?

As far as competition goes, i'll stick to my original premise re streak... unless you play the same games in the same order the comparison is flawed. Albeit enjoyable.

i do prefer win% over streak but again the comparison is flawed unless you've played the same set of games. For win% order doesn't matter.

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 20 Dec 2024 09:16:38 GMT
1		6	27	63	139	661	315	31	214	40	10,293,470	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
2		2	14	27	88	106	374	665	159	41	5,440,832	BrewCrewOldSkool
3		5	15	45	69	131	160	119	76	32	4,490,875	ElGuapo
4		6	18	23	64	66	121	73	46	34	2,766,264	kangaroo
5		4	12	37	50	120	118	116	63	15	2,404,930	Dr.Bombay
6		3	11	29	48	60	65	105	91	34	1,977,624	Dr.BRS
7		1	8	19	79	35	134	182	46	25	1,081,556	Ellie2
8		1		55	126	225	335	210	49	44	1,029,735	xyzabc
9		2	11	18	52	22	47	99	35	42	897,342	TitanicTony
10			7	25	48	126	107	41	143	50	895,084	TNmountainman
11		4	11	14	32	9	75	102	65	26	824,588	Zonny
12			12	31	39	71	90	96	49	28	764,976	omnescient
13		8	8	30	107	500	11	11	12	10	626,188	Lindyhopper_Agame
14		2	7	14	37	40	57	51	29	27	586,126	Julian
15			8	33	40	55	25	25	88	37	415,751	TNmountainmanMUDstains
16					161	4205	858	613	102	47	300,581	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
17				18	62	58	116	86	136	45	268,886	outskirts
18			1	1	61	91	201	210	65	44	194,888	redberet
19				8	17	28	412	249	91	55	183,027	T1-T3
20				20	37	61	77	87	47	29	159,975	lauradoom
21				24	47	51	55	59	59	25	147,470	Punster
22		6	5	23	24	4	6	7	49	39	137,340	Uberman
23				21	36	214	126	103	76	3	126,276	rbw--3
24		1	5	6	24	26	25	15	17	11	92,152	giammer
25					73	78	255	190	80	52	87,484	d164280a
26					63	46	147	88	117	49	61,650	sebcbien2
27				2	30	32	98	61	49	17	48,682	edv
28			7	15	12	63	4	19	28	5	46,467	rbw-1
29		1	1	1	58	3	138	88	27	10	44,017	SirPape
30			2		14	93	115	51	26	18	42,974	Tesuji
31					47	47	70	70	63	39	38,721	GoAdoptADog!
32			6	12	14	59	60	56	15		38,631	araujo
33				32	29	315	31	32	57		31,613	wasjun
34				14	42	117	32	10	66	1	26,495	jimmyp
35		1			16	197	21	116	28	8	25,614	firenze
36		1	4	5	4	10	39	10	10	5	20,604	LadyLove
37					25	16	35	38	24	15	10,561	DebbyJ
38					72		82	147	115	22	9,026	kenwa
39					4	5	84	52	37	24	6,668	confused1
40					24	4	44	17	40	18	6,644	cellmate
41					51		62	71	52	27	5,947	NHJack
42				13	4	37	16	12	4	3	5,086	MattC
43				1	44	2	42	7	7	23	4,461	smelly_cootiefied_fence_post
44				55	33	9	30	48			2,921	Brandeau
45				11	28	26	19	23			1,780	RogerAnonymous
46				1	3	88	29	350	1		1,587	Gulbis
47					5	14	17	11	6	5	1,487	silvrstreak
48					14	363	6	7		20	1,444	strassenbeuge
49			1	2	37	52	24	6			1,360	aschdog
50				1		123	23	21	19		1,019	Darkosi
51					17	298		41	19		833	huffy
52						25	36	36	30		655	awanes
53					15	23	35	46			552	FallRiverFisherman
54				27	12	71		13			447	blauerflieder
55							21	69	32	6	425	Joychia
56		1	1	14	25	191					363	DrJackK
57					1	16	5	4	22	1	349	vishna
58				40		517	1			19	339	noneoftheabove
59			4	21	67					17	303	Mastermind
60				1		33	4	27	1	1	256	CubicSprock
61				1	5		2	7	16	2	235	DeirdreL
62				9		10	5		3	2	162	jbranick3
63						1	1	10	12	19	151	bluedog
64					6	335	3	1	1		147	JackK
65		2	6	2	1	1	19				132	BrownsRedSox
66					7	74	12			1	120	Kaos
67						22	8	11	2		113	teacher93
68							11	8	13	2	96	Gordie
69						47	5	6	2		95	Luogomano
70				3	1	4	211				74	cottage
71						1		29	26	1	60	Jude
72			1	1	1	3	1	1	1	1	58	radley
73				2	2	21				7	57	hibdibblyabob
74				3	12	9				1	48	Harbour-Carew
75				1		12			1	18	41	JackStraw
76					1		2	12		7	38	leewayne
77							4	3	3	4	36	Rob1947
78			1	2		16	1	1			33	skipperocky
79						10	470				32	ValpoJim
80					1	16		3	2		31	sayerahatwork
81							3	5	6	1	31	Runner
82					2	4	2	3			24	nesretep21
83				56		2		2			23	cattlefeeder
84						8	4		1	1	22	gumbybros
85					3	5	2	1			21	benlake3000
86			1			3		1		2	12	differentDay
87						3322					12	PudongPete
88						1650					11	Canada1
89		8				5					9	tileguy
90									236		8	riverb212

 

Hop to the latest scores here

12-sum Current Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 20 Dec 2024 09:17:11 GMT
1		4	35	58	82	89	608	532	149	25	9,547,926	Uberman
2		1	15	63	139	661	315	665	214	22	7,235,743	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
3			8	33	28	41	288	288	49	12	655,607	TNmountainmanMUDstains
4		2		23	69	131	160	75	40	15	408,547	ElGuapo
5			8	5	42	141	134	17	46	9	212,047	Ellie2
6			14	11	18	26	93	53	13		45,637	BrewCrewOldSkool
7		1	9	22	23		27	26	20	10	43,588	kangaroo
8				36	124	4950	276	322			30,431	wasjun
9					47	439	138	134	59	2	29,561	Punster
10				33	3	46	27	99	35	3	26,024	TitanicTony
11						172	1102	20	81	2	4,278	T1-T3
12			1	3	1	19	6	1	1	1	306	radley
13						10	26	20	12		293	edv
14						16205			221		109	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
15					2	16	6	10			90	FallRiverFisherman
16					6	4	6	8			77	RogerAnonymous
17						78				30	32	d164280a
18						23334					15	PudongPete
19										25	5	rdking02

 

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 27 Dec 2024 07:05:23 GMT
1		6	27	64	139	685	316	32	215	40	10,491,090	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
2		2	14	27	88	106	374	665	159	41	5,440,832	BrewCrewOldSkool
3		5	15	45	70	131	161	119	76	32	4,511,060	ElGuapo
4		6	18	23	64	66	121	73	46	34	2,766,264	kangaroo
5		4	12	37	50	120	118	116	63	15	2,404,930	Dr.Bombay
6		3	11	29	48	60	65	105	91	34	1,977,624	Dr.BRS
7		1	8	19	79	35	134	182	59	25	1,148,517	Ellie2
8		1		55	126	225	335	210	49	44	1,029,735	xyzabc
9		2	11	19	52	23	47	100	37	42	939,137	TitanicTony
10			7	25	48	126	107	41	143	50	895,084	TNmountainman
11		4	11	14	32	9	75	102	65	26	824,588	Zonny
12			12	31	39	71	90	96	49	28	764,976	omnescient
13		9	9	31	109	500	12	12	13	10	747,137	Lindyhopper_Agame
14		2	7	14	37	40	57	51	29	27	586,126	Julian
15			8	33	40	55	26	26	88	37	424,977	TNmountainmanMUDstains
16					161	4205	858	613	118	47	309,842	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
17				18	62	58	116	86	136	45	268,886	outskirts
18			1	1	61	91	201	210	75	44	201,336	redberet
19				8	17	29	414	249	107	55	191,417	T1-T3
20				20	37	61	77	87	47	29	159,975	lauradoom
21				25	49	52	56	60	60	25	153,278	Punster
22		6	5	23	24	4	6	7	59	39	143,594	Uberman
23				21	36	214	126	103	76	3	126,276	rbw--3
24					73	105	255	190	80	52	93,290	d164280a
25		1	5	6	24	26	25	15	17	11	92,152	giammer
26					63	46	147	88	117	49	61,650	sebcbien2
27				2	30	32	98	61	49	17	48,682	edv
28			7	15	12	63	4	19	28	5	46,467	rbw-1
29		1	1	1	58	3	138	88	31	10	45,706	SirPape
30			2		14	93	115	51	26	18	42,974	Tesuji
31					47	47	70	70	63	39	38,721	GoAdoptADog!
32			6	12	14	59	60	56	15		38,631	araujo
33				33	30	322	31	33	57		32,555	wasjun
34				14	42	117	32	10	66	1	26,495	jimmyp
35		1			16	197	21	116	28	8	25,614	firenze
36		1	4	5	4	10	39	10	10	5	20,604	LadyLove
37					25	16	35	38	24	15	10,561	DebbyJ
38					72		82	147	115	22	9,026	kenwa
39					4	5	84	52	37	24	6,668	confused1
40					24	4	44	17	40	18	6,644	cellmate
41					51		62	71	52	27	5,947	NHJack
42				13	4	37	16	12	4	3	5,086	MattC
43				1	44	2	42	8	7	23	4,674	smelly_cootiefied_fence_post
44				55	33	9	30	48			2,921	Brandeau
45				1	3	88	29	350	2		2,003	Gulbis
46				11	28	26	19	23			1,780	RogerAnonymous
47					5	14	17	11	6	5	1,487	silvrstreak
48					14	363	6	7		20	1,444	strassenbeuge
49			1	2	37	52	24	6			1,360	aschdog
50				1		123	23	21	19		1,019	Darkosi
51					17	298		41	19		833	huffy
52						25	36	36	30		655	awanes
53					15	23	35	46			552	FallRiverFisherman
54				27	12	71		13			447	blauerflieder
55							21	69	32	6	425	Joychia
56		1	1	14	25	191					363	DrJackK
57					1	16	5	4	22	1	349	vishna
58				40		517	1			19	339	noneoftheabove
59			4	21	67					17	303	Mastermind
60				1		33	4	27	1	1	256	CubicSprock
61					6	335	14	1	1		253	JackK
62				1	5		2	7	16	2	235	DeirdreL
63				9		10	5		3	2	162	jbranick3
64						1	1	10	12	19	151	bluedog
65		2	6	2	1	1	19				132	BrownsRedSox
66					7	74	12			1	120	Kaos
67						22	8	11	2		113	teacher93
68							11	8	13	2	96	Gordie
69						47	5	6	2		95	Luogomano
70				3	1	4	211				74	cottage
71						1		29	26	1	60	Jude
72			1	1	1	3	1	1	1	1	58	radley
73				2	2	21				7	57	hibdibblyabob
74				3	12	9				1	48	Harbour-Carew
75				1		12			1	18	41	JackStraw
76					1		2	12		7	38	leewayne
77							4	3	3	4	36	Rob1947
78			1	2		16	1	1			33	skipperocky
79						10	470				32	ValpoJim
80					1	16		3	2		31	sayerahatwork
81							3	5	6	1	31	Runner
82					2	4	2	3			24	nesretep21
83				56		2		2			23	cattlefeeder
84						8	4		1	1	22	gumbybros
85					3	5	2	1			21	benlake3000
86			1			3		1		2	12	differentDay
87						3446					12	PudongPete
88						1650					11	Canada1
89		8				5					9	tileguy
90									236		8	riverb212

 

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12-sum Current Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 27 Dec 2024 07:05:48 GMT
1		1	15	64	139	685	316	666	215	28	7,827,450	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
2		11	13	38	110	95	211	210	214	7	5,079,270	Lindyhopper_Agame
3		3	6	24	70	131	161	78	18	15	1,169,758	ElGuapo
4		2	10	10	24	30	27	27	21	10	231,198	kangaroo
5			8	5	42	141	134	17	59	9	225,176	Ellie2
6				50	49	440	139	135	60	3	199,087	Punster
7				16	36	36	60	32	26	16	69,737	omnescient
8				34	4	47	28	100	37	4	33,565	TitanicTony
9				20	15	24	40	40	25	5	33,255	lauradoom
10			14		11	11	121	71	11	11	32,231	BrewCrewOldSkool
11				37	125	4957	276	323			30,719	wasjun
12				33	28	3	289	289	51		22,425	TNmountainmanMUDstains
13						173	1104	28	23	33	8,806	T1-T3
14						71	38	22	111		1,030	Gulbis
15						16205			237		110	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
16					2	18	6	12			99	FallRiverFisherman
17					6	4	6	8			77	RogerAnonymous
18									159	30	37	Uberman
19						105				36	35	d164280a
20						23458					15	PudongPete

 

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 03 Jan 2025 07:14:55 GMT
1							7	8	9	12	139	BrewCrewOldSkool
2		1	9	10			1			5	87	kangaroo
3				10		1		20			25	Brandeau
4						1	1	1		25	19	T1-T3
5					1	1	1	1	1	1	16	Punster
6						8	16				14	edv
7					20	4					12	America
8				1	1	2			1		8	lauradoom
9						2			12		8	javab
10						165					7	br!
11						97					7	Illa
12						90					7	wolle
13							55				6	ValpoJim
14					27						5	nug
15					24						5	ElGuapo
16								30			5	lexilulu30@gmail.com
17								27			5	grandpadon
18									36		5	riverb212
19							18				4	rickr
20									17		4	fishtales1
21										18	4	sebcbien2
22										14	4	rudo
23				8							3	pipster

 

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12-sum Current Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 03 Jan 2025 07:15:22 GMT
1		2	16	65	140	705	317	667	221	32	10,607,492	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
2		11	13	38	112	118	211	210	214	7	5,335,458	Lindyhopper_Agame
3		3	7	24	19	132	161	78	46	16	1,161,768	ElGuapo
4			9	34	31	13	289	289	31	11	440,774	TNmountainmanMUDstains
5				50	50	441	140	136	61	4	224,332	Punster
6		4	9	10	24	30	29	27	23	4	217,678	kangaroo
7				17	37	37	61	33	28	5	50,118	omnescient
8				21	16	26	45	45	26	10	48,218	lauradoom
9				37	125	4962	277	323			30,743	wasjun
10				34	4	47	28	31	37	4	25,375	TitanicTony
11			15			18	7	151	23	12	7,186	BrewCrewOldSkool
12						174	1105	29	23	5	4,872	T1-T3
13						73	40	46	111		1,279	Gulbis
14						8	17	3	7	6	312	Androven
15						5	16	21	30		265	edv
16				1	8	6	8	10			188	RogerAnonymous
17								1688	237		85	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
18									159	30	37	Uberman
19						23527					15	PudongPete
20						1311					10	rgk18
21										35	5	Weaser25

 

2024 Standings

🥇 Goosey_Goosey_Gander

🥈 BrewCrewOldSkool

🥉 ElGuapo

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 10 Jan 2025 08:04:46 GMT
1					15	16	42	106	78	21	17,975	BrewCrewOldSkool
2		1	4	3	33	1	1	11	9	1	2,487	ElGuapo
3						25	49	22	22	14	2,268	edv
4				1		48	2	2	17	19	668	TNmountainmanMUDstains
5						27	9	7	22	4	631	Androven
6		1	11	11	1	1	1	1		14	548	kangaroo
7				1	1	3	5	5	1	5	205	lauradoom
8						1	1	108	1	25	128	T1-T3
9				1	1	20	1	1	2	1	89	Lindyhopper_Agame
10				1	1	1	1	3	1	1	37	Punster
11				15		2		20			36	Brandeau
12						48	78				36	TLT
13								102		7	21	redberet
14								16		27	20	sebcbien2
15				1	1	3	1	1			15	omnescient
16					41	5					15	America
17				1		5	1	1			11	wasjun
18						451					9	iceoff
19						265					8	LeftNuttt
20						221					8	f8
21							94				7	Esonci
22									107		7	riverb212
23				1	1				1	1	6	Uberman
24					49						6	Hi-its-me-again
25							64				6	rickr
26				22							5	cattlefeeder
27									25		5	fishtales1
28										33	5	vavava
29				20							4	pipster

 

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12-sum Current Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 10 Jan 2025 08:05:16 GMT
1		2	16	65	140	722	317	667	238	32	10,790,553	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
2		4	11	27	33	133	162	89	55	17	2,001,179	ElGuapo
3			9	35	31	48	291	291	41	14	747,851	TNmountainmanMUDstains
4				39	113	134	212	211	216	8	401,642	Lindyhopper_Agame
5				51	50	441	140	138	61	4	226,072	Punster
6		4	2	11	25	31	29	28	23	14	207,207	kangaroo
7				18	38	40	62	34	28	5	52,998	omnescient
8				21	16	27	50	50	26	5	40,187	lauradoom
9			15		15	34	11	11	78	21	33,824	BrewCrewOldSkool
10						174	1105	136	24	10	9,036	T1-T3
11				38		4967	278	324			4,435	wasjun
12				59	83				160	31	1,407	Uberman
13						11	9	10	22	4	544	Androven
14						25	23	22	22		464	edv
15						23631					15	PudongPete
16								1738			11	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
17						1321					10	rgk18

 

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 17 Jan 2025 07:22:16 GMT
1					35	58	82	106	86	23	39,857	BrewCrewOldSkool
2					31	35	49	41	34	14	16,727	edv
3		3	4	3	47	2	2	11	15	1	7,504	ElGuapo
4		2	11	12	2	2	3	2	2	16	4,365	kangaroo
5				2	5	4	6	6	3	6	910	lauradoom
6						32	9	9	40	4	849	Androven
7				1		48	2	2	17	19	668	TNmountainmanMUDstains
8			1	1	1	17	1	1	17	1	286	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
9			1	2	2	42	1	1	2	1	276	Lindyhopper_Agame
10				2	2	2	2	4	2	2	165	Punster
11				10	2	4	1	1	2	1	148	omnescient
12						1	1	108	1	28	132	T1-T3
13				23		2		79			59	Brandeau
14				2	1	12	1	2			38	wasjun
15								102		16	28	redberet
16								16		30	21	sebcbien2
17				1	1	2	2	2			20	RogerAnonymous
18					41	8					18	America
19						457					9	iceoff
20						449					9	LeftNuttt
21						289					8	hundeboll
22							208				8	ValpoJim
23					91						7	Hi-its-me-again
24							94				7	Esonci
25									107		7	riverb212
26				1	1				1	1	6	Uberman
27				22							5	cattlefeeder
28										33	5	vavava
29				20							4	pipster

 

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12-sum Current Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 17 Jan 2025 07:22:38 GMT
1			1	66	141	722	318	668	238	33	2,079,397	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
2		3	11	27	47	134	163	89	61	17	2,021,814	ElGuapo
3			14	40	114	156	212	211	216	8	1,669,385	Lindyhopper_Agame
4				52	51	442	141	139	62	5	249,612	Punster
5		2	2	12	26	32	31	29	25	7	140,301	kangaroo
6				10	39	41	62	34	30	6	48,493	omnescient
7				35		48	291	291	41	14	42,855	TNmountainmanMUDstains
8				39	126	4974	278	325			31,275	wasjun
9				22	5	28	51	51	28	6	30,504	lauradoom
10					35	76	82	60	11	11	17,065	BrewCrewOldSkool
11				59	83				160	31	1,407	Uberman
12					1	35	26	41	1	3	793	edv
13						32	9	6	40	4	736	Androven
14				2	9	8	10	12			314	RogerAnonymous
15						18			34	19	98	manatee
16						142	289				59	Darkosi
17						23664					15	PudongPete
18								1738			11	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
19						1337					10	rgk18

 

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 24 Jan 2025 07:05:29 GMT
1					47	89	100	106	86	40	57,363	BrewCrewOldSkool
2		3	5	16	48	2	2	12	15	2	19,099	ElGuapo
3					31	35	49	41	34	14	16,727	edv
4		3	11	13	2	12	3	2	2	16	9,900	kangaroo
5				3	6	4	6	6	4	7	1,328	lauradoom
6		1	1	2	3	56	2	2	3	2	1,269	Lindyhopper_Agame
7						34	9	9	45	4	888	Androven
8						1	62	113	3	40	815	T1-T3
9			1	1	1	1	13	77	1	7	781	Ellie2
10				1		48	2	2	17	19	668	TNmountainmanMUDstains
11						102	33	49		8	648	jimmyp
12			4	1	1	18	1	1	18	1	483	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
13				10	2	4	2	2	3	2	344	omnescient
14				2	2	2	2	4	2	2	165	Punster
15							36	102		23	163	redberet
16							46	16		33	119	sebcbien2
17						3	11	44		2	95	rbw--3
18						1	3	60		12	83	GoAdoptADog!
19				2	2	19	2	2			70	wasjun
20				23		2		79			59	Brandeau
21					55	102					39	Jigsaw
22					4	2	4	4			35	FallRiverFisherman
23			1	1	1				1	23	29	Uberman
24						20				33	23	d164280a
25				1	1	2	2	2			20	RogerAnonymous
26				22		2					9	cattlefeeder
27						457					9	iceoff
28						449					9	LeftNuttt
29							398				9	ValpoJim
30						325					8	Canada1
31					126						7	Hi-its-me-again
32							94				7	Esonci
33									107		7	riverb212
34									49		6	aerostat57
35										33	5	vavava
36				20							4	pipster

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12-sum Current Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 24 Jan 2025 07:05:58 GMT
1		12	14	40	115	170	213	212	217	9	6,759,677	Lindyhopper_Agame
2			4	66	141	723	318	668	239	33	3,394,634	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
3		3	12		48	134	163	90	61	18	438,991	ElGuapo
4		3	10	13	26	42	31	29	25	14	405,696	kangaroo
5				52	51	442	141	139	62	5	249,612	Punster
6			9	6	43	142	147	80	60	2	223,352	Ellie2
7				10	39	41	63	35	31	7	52,284	omnescient
8				23	6	28	51	51	29	7	35,223	lauradoom
9				39	127	4981	279	325			31,350	wasjun
10					47	11	73	88	20	4	9,685	BrewCrewOldSkool
11							1166	141	26	37	1,854	T1-T3
12						35	26	10	1	3	330	edv
13				2	9	8	10	12			314	RogerAnonymous
14						22			39	22	113	manatee
15					4	20	10	4			107	FallRiverFisherman
16			36							20	23	Uberman
17						23701					15	PudongPete
18							7450				13	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
19						1340					10	rgk18
20					146						7	Hi-its-me-again

 

12-sum Yearly Standings

Live versions of joeygray's scores as well as several others.Colors denote: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places of a variant. 

12-sum

Winnables

(11-12-13) sum

11-sum

10-sum

9-sum

8-sum

13-sum

14-sum

Zeros

 

		4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0		Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:06:45 GMT
1				2	49	89	100	114	86	40	117,675	BrewCrewOldSkool
2		3	5	20	48	3	3	12	17	2	28,611	ElGuapo
3		4	11	14	3	20	4	3	3	24	25,953	kangaroo
4					31	35	49	41	35	14	16,855	edv
5				1	1	2	63	115	3	51	2,765	T1-T3
6		1	2	3	4	77	2	2	3	2	2,228	Lindyhopper_Agame
7				4	7	5	7	7	5	7	2,057	lauradoom
8			1	1	12	1	13	77	1	7	1,876	Ellie2
9			4	2	2	19	2	2	19	2	1,596	Goosey_Goosey_Gander
10						43	9	9	50	5	1,052	Androven
11				3	4	4	4	6	4	4	804	Punster
12				11	3	5	3	3	4	3	781	omnescient
13					19		36	102		23	717	redberet
14				1	4	1	18	12	1	15	692	TitanicTony
15				1		48	2	2	17	19	668	TNmountainmanMUDstains
16						102	33	49		8	648	jimmyp
17					47	3	11	44		2	533	rbw--3
18					19		23	41		8	368	outskirts
19							4	43	22	11	241	confused1
20					9		24	47		3	212	SirPape
21					8		31	10		8	200	DebbyJ
22			4		13	15				10	148	firenze
23				3	2	26	3	3			120	wasjun
24							46	16		33	119	sebcbien2
25						1	3	60		12	83	GoAdoptADog!
26				23		4		79			76	Brandeau
27				2	2	4	4	4			69	RogerAnonymous
28			1	2	3				2	23	68	Uberman
29					6	4	4	4			52	FallRiverFisherman
30					86	102					43	Jigsaw
31						25				33	24	d164280a
32					1	2	2		1		10	harpo55
33				22		2					9	cattlefeeder
34						457					9	iceoff
35						449					9	LeftNuttt
36						445					9	spugeddy2
37							398				9	ValpoJim
38					140						7	Hi-its-me-again
39							94				7	Esonci
40									158		7	riverb212
41				23							5	Marco1296
42										33	5	vavava