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Subject: 7x0 game 1850 can be worked

Date: Sat Feb 27 21:48:14 2010
User: clyon
Message:
3 tries for me

Date: Sun Feb 28 07:30:42 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
that is the 2nd 7x0 level 5 game ever solved - the other is 12832

Date: Sun Feb 28 14:34:59 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Very interesting. I just played a few for kicks, and (he says facetiously) gee, those are even harder than 10x0s.... Whatever it is that Denny's algorithms do to make low level games easier isn't nearly enough for that variant.

My questions are:

1. clyon, how many other 7x0 games did you play before you found and solved that one?
2. deadwing, how do you know what you state, since 7x0 is not listed in "game stats"? (I'm not doubting what you say, just wondering where that information can be found.)

Date: Sun Feb 28 17:07:22 2010
User: ix
Message:
one way to find the stats is just use the URL for 7x1 and change the 1 to a zero. how to find a solvable game is beyond me, since 2 have been solved and only 211 different games have been played.

Link: http://www.freecell.net/f/c/view_games.html?;7x0,5,g,0

Date: Sun Feb 28 20:49:56 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
the way to find solvable games is to use game stats for 1 more freecell and try the games with the highest win percentage - this was the means I used to find a 4x3 game to win - this does not work as well on 7x0 since 7x1's are not widely played. It is amazing how games have been played on the "rare" variants that are not listed on the regular game stat page.

Date: Mon Mar 1 02:05:58 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Thanks for those insights, ix and deadwing....
Still wondering how many games clyon played before he won that one, and/or did he use the method outlined by deadwing?

Date: Mon Mar 1 19:29:36 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Just out of curiosity, I played a few (~4) 7x0 level 3s, and didn't win any (or see much hope). So then I tried some 7x0 level 1, and I won the third one of those I tried, #31644, on first try. Obviously I don't have any idea how indicative that small sampling is.

Date: Tue Mar 2 09:49:17 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
That is the first level 1 7x0 ever won - congrats

Date: Tue Mar 2 11:40:30 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
LOL.......... (And I probably *lost* the first one, too....)

Date: Tue Mar 2 13:07:03 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Ok, now after trying about 10-12 7x0 level 2s, I won one of them, #12947, on first try (though tricky). Am I the first to win one of those?

Date: Tue Mar 2 13:28:18 2010
User: Dr.Xeena
Message:
I tried several 7x0s, just random level 5s, then I tried some 8x0s, then I tried some 9x0s. Then I gave up. I shall try level 1. Congrats TN wow.

Date: Tue Mar 2 14:09:43 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
The level 1's do give you a lot of help. You should be able to crack one of those pretty soon, although I really haven't played enough of them to say that with any reasonable confidence level.

Date: Tue Mar 2 17:12:17 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
yes - the very first level 2 7x0

Why should it surprise you - it just shows how rarely these games are played

Date: Tue Mar 2 19:33:00 2010
User: CubicSprock
Message:
finally won a 7x1 in streak mode, only the 3rd to do so...and the 2nd since it became possible without 'hacking' the system.

Date: Tue Mar 2 23:20:01 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I guess it surprises me because many on this site are into what some would call the extremes or esoterica of challenges. And many or most have been here longer than I, so I was expecting that all these variants had been tried out an at least cursory levels. When there are movements to try and solve *all* of particular variants, at least at a particular level, there have got to be some extremely, uh, dedicated players here.
I have not tried ix's suggestion to see the stats for these I've been playing, so I had (nor have) no feel for how many had been tried.
Another way to say all this is that because of the variety of players and styles on this site, finding uncharted territory, or unplowed ground, is a bit unexpected.....

Date: Wed Mar 3 00:39:53 2010
User: clyon
Message:
hi Tnmountainman i believe u too be the first .the 1 i did was 3rd try. and i have played over 200 with that one being the only 1 i thought could be won.

Date: Wed Mar 3 21:16:47 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Thanks, clyon. I just now beat a 7x0, level 3. #5099. Even when I had well over 30 cards up, I still had not cleared a column, and the outcome was still in doubt. I probably played 40-50 games to win that one, and in only two others was I able to clear a column. I notice a distinct increase in difficulty between level 2 and 3, methinks.....
40-50 games sounds like a lot, but with a lot of them lasting only 30-45 sec or less, before they are obviously not winnable, it doesn't take all that long. However, I think I'll stop at level 3 here....

By the way, I'm just playing these at random, not doing the 'research' as suggested by deadwing to find easier ones.

Date: Wed Mar 3 22:08:51 2010
User: Dr.Xeena
Message:
I've played about 40 level ones now at random, at least. I'm gonna keep on til I win one.

Date: Wed Mar 3 22:09:59 2010
User: Dr.Xeena
Message:
Several of them I tried 2 or 3 or more times.

Date: Wed Mar 3 22:45:24 2010
User: clyon
Message:
big congrats////// MOUNTAINMAN U HAVE A RECORD THAT WILL STAND ,..IT WILL TAKE A STREAK OF 2 RIGHT?

Date: Wed Mar 3 23:35:22 2010
User: Dr.Xeena
Message:
After about 75 games I won 10436-1 on the first try. yay.

Date: Thu Mar 4 09:05:39 2010
User: CubicSprock
Message:
anyone wanna be the first to try and win a 7x0 in streak mode?

Link: 7x0 All Time Standings

Date: Thu Mar 4 18:12:36 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
no thanks - it took over 100 games to get 3rd on the 8x0 list

Date: Thu Mar 4 22:29:48 2010
User: clyon
Message:
congrats Dr. Xeena.. for u too deadwing but hey don t u like to see stats 1 played 1 0 0.00, virgin games.

Date: Fri Mar 5 02:02:14 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Looks like in order to solve those two level 5 games noted, 12832 and 1850, about 217 different games have been played. So the odds of encountering a winnable game seem, based on this very limited sample, to be in the rough vicinity of 1% (probably within a half-order of magnitude therefrom) - daunting but not overwhelming. But beating one on first try is of course even harder......
I may try a few every now and then, but life's too short to spend tons of time on that batch.

On the other hand, I'd like to see how long it would take someone else to win another 7x0 level 3......... (And that's not a challenge, just wondering...)

Date: Fri Mar 5 09:32:26 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
found a 6x0 level 1 that can be done - top that if you can - the number is 26362

Date: Fri Mar 5 09:43:47 2010
User: jimmyp
Message:
CS, what do you mean "hacking the system"? Is this related to SirPape winning three in a row of something like 6x3?

Date: Fri Mar 5 10:53:02 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Congrats on that, deadwing! Did you 'cruise' other variants to try and find a winnable one, as per your suggestion?

No, jimmyp, although I wasn't around at that time, I *think* he means like Bristol.City.Football.Club did. Actual hacking. But he can elaborate better than I, of course.
Was it somehow revealed that SirPape did actually hack the system to do what he did? I know there was speculation, but he staunchly defended himself, as I recall. I honestly don't know the final story on that....

Date: Fri Mar 5 11:10:42 2010
User: deadwing
Message:
I started to "cruise" the level 5's, but all the ones I wanted to try - had already been tried. I played the level ones randomly. It was rare to send more than 10 cards to home and 16 was the most before I found the one that went to 52.

Date: Fri Mar 5 11:59:54 2010
User: CawthraGuy
Message:
any ? X 0 game is pure luck, there are so few options for the first 7 moves that most games are impossible

Date: Fri Mar 5 12:17:03 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Disagree, respectfully. Of course the deal itself is luck, or Denny's manipulations thereof, but clearly there is a degree of 'skill' in solving some where your '?' is in the 10-12 range, and even a few where it's 9 or 13.

Date: Fri Mar 5 19:22:05 2010
User: kangaroo
Message:
SirPape got 3 in 4x4. Getting 2 was bound to happen sometime. That he went on to 3 is one of those statistical quirks, combined with good solving.

About half of the level 5 10x0s are winnable.

Date: Sat Mar 6 00:12:15 2010
User: clyon
Message:
i have not been able to pull up stats on the new records, what me do wong.

Date: Sat Mar 6 21:38:44 2010
User: rws33315
Message:
You must change the URL to locate a record that isn't in the stats list.

Date: Sun Mar 7 00:12:46 2010
User: clyon
Message:
thank you rws33315 !!!!! now if i can find out what a URL is i can catch up with you guys.

Date: Sun Mar 7 08:17:49 2010
User: rws33315
Message:
Look at the 4th message in this thread-Posted by ix-That link is the URL. Good Luck!

Date: Sun Mar 7 11:56:59 2010
User: CubicSprock
Message:
yes, I was talking about BCFC hacking, allowed him to get games to count for streaks that weren't otherwise possible. So assuming he was able to do that somehow, you can't assume that is all he did and played games legitimately from there. Now it is possible using the custom game option to play previously unstreakable variants in streak mode...though it takes an extra couple clicks before each game.

Date: Sun Mar 7 12:45:58 2010
User: clyon
Message:
thanks again RWS33315. i thunk i there now.um um-----

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