Subject: speaking of unwon 6x6 level 5 games
Date: Mon Mar 3 17:50:48 2008
User: ix
Message:19867-5 is winnable
Date: Mon Mar 3 18:05:13 2008
User: Kaos
Message:Stats still show no wins. Did you plug it into a solver?
Date: Mon Mar 3 18:07:59 2008
User: ix
Message:yes, i didn't want to tamper with its stats, but i checked all 5 and that one shows as solvable
Date: Mon Mar 3 19:11:43 2008
User: ElGuapo
Message:That's amazing. The challenge is on.
Date: Mon Mar 3 19:41:39 2008
User: hysterical
Message:tries 143-169 were mine. will try again later.
Date: Mon Mar 3 19:42:45 2008
User: hysterical
Message:no, I meant 143-159.
Date: Mon Mar 3 20:43:29 2008
User: Kaos
Message:ix, before I try beating on this game a bit more, are you sure you didn't have any typos when entering this game?
Date: Mon Mar 3 22:10:30 2008
User: ix
Message:I actually logged in as anonymous and followed the solver's win file, which made winning that game look easy. The stats showed the game as unwon, so the upshot is: yes I am sure.
Date: Mon Mar 3 22:44:29 2008
User: ElGuapo
Message:I've tried a half a dozen times, got nowhere.
Date: Mon Mar 3 22:59:21 2008
User: Kaos
Message:I've been in for at least two dozen more attempts today. I've tried every trick I know but all have led to dead ends.
Date: Tue Mar 4 01:37:34 2008
User: ix
Message:I played it as anon one more time just to be sure, this is cut and pasted directly from the dialogue box at the end of game, so yeah, I'm super sure its winnable.
Congratulations!
You Win
Game #: 6x6 19867
Difficulty: 5
currently 294 plays 0 wins
Link: http://www.freecell.net/f/c/view_games.html?;6x6,5,g,19800
Date: Tue Mar 4 02:53:19 2008
User: Arheus
Message:The last more than fifty tries are mine. I remember when I first came upon the 6x6 group project (http://www.hotelnetcell.com/viewtopic.php?t=271) I tried those five games several times, including this one, and felt stumped. Something is eluding us about this game (yeah, I know, the solution.)
Date: Tue Mar 4 09:00:31 2008
User: fnuco
Message:ix is right ;)
Date: Tue Mar 4 09:34:59 2008
User: Arheus
Message:1/478....
this has to be a new all-time record for a netcell game.
and more than a hundred and fifty of those tries are mine...
fnuco, if you are the one who solved it, and without using a solver, you have my deepest congratulations :)
Date: Tue Mar 4 09:55:08 2008
User: Arheus
Message:2/481.... yes, of course, sweet neverending irony... just three more tries after seeing that 1, I solve it too. And not before :P Oh well.
Date: Tue Mar 4 10:09:31 2008
User: hysterical
Message:jeeeezzzz, I quit last night in the 180's.
I was slightly disgusted over it, but ready to try again today.
My question is, can either winner remember how they did it? But please don't tell or give hints. If you do, put a warning at the top then leave a big space.
Date: Tue Mar 4 10:15:01 2008
User: fnuco
Message:thank you, Arheus. what is a solver?
i needed about 100 tries. ix wrote that he "followed the solver's win file, which made winning that game look easy". after 100 tries without success i don't feel qualified to say that it is not really hard to win that game. but there was only one move i call counterintuitive. so the severity of the game reduces to find the right column to clear first - which is, of course, not obvious. the rest were almost completely forced moves.
Date: Tue Mar 4 10:24:00 2008
User: Arheus
Message:I totally agree with the last part - most of the solution is composed of forced moves. But before that there are tons of beginnings available - it's the nature of games with 6 free cells :P - and so finding the right one (by trial and error) apparently takes countles tries. And even if you do know you have the right start (which I found about seventy tries ago) you still need that special kinda-CSM move to get throught the middle. The rest is history.
Date: Tue Mar 4 10:30:39 2008
User: ix
Message:I'm not comfortable even bringing up solvers, but in this case felt I needed to. I have a program that will solve freecell games, which I sometimes use when I blow a streak, to see if the game I lost is unwinnable. If it can be won I will replay it til I win it, else move on. It involves typing the card layout into a text editor, which the solver uses as input. This particular game took the solver more time than I've ever seen, several seconds, which is an eternity for the program. If the game is winnable it generates a file showing the moves it made. That is what I used to win that game as an anon. I don't even like talking about it, since this kind of thing doesn't really belong here at the site, but when I saw the 6x6 project mentioned I just had to check those games.
Date: Tue Mar 4 10:44:10 2008
User: Arheus
Message:ix, as long as you played as anon and didn't affect the stats, there is absolutely no harm done, so don't worry. The solvers are a delicate subject when it comes to long streaks, this is definitely not the case. And it really was fun :) I've never worked so much to solve a single netcell game.
Date: Tue Mar 4 10:52:38 2008
User: hysterical
Message:yup, this is an example of machine vs. man. I would say in this case, machine won.
But Congrats to Fnuco and Arheus!
Date: Fri Mar 7 10:45:25 2008
User: hysterical
Message:unbelievable. I just watched "astrospies" online. This comment was near the end of it:
JAMES BAMFORD: In the end, it came down to a competition of man against machine, and machine won.
Date: Fri Mar 7 12:10:08 2008
User: birdhaus
Message:I love when that happens, hysterical. I recently experienced seeing three characters from Northern Exposure in one day. I saw Holling on Law and Order, Maurice on No Country for Old Men and Chris (voice) on an Applebees commercial.
Date: Fri Mar 7 18:03:18 2008
User: deadwing
Message:Joel has been seen on Numb3rs.
Date: Wed Mar 12 18:46:07 2008
User: kangaroo
Message:I've played it a lot. Now up to 2/777. I'd appreciate the solution so I can move on. Thanks.
Date: Thu Mar 13 01:41:45 2008
User: ix
Message:I assume you mean from one of the human solvers.
Date: Thu Mar 13 03:00:39 2008
User: kangaroo
Message:Yes, Arheus?
Even just the start would do.
Date: Thu Mar 13 06:19:08 2008
User: Arheus
Message:(Just took a look at the stats right now... 2/863. This game is mind-blowing.)
I'll give it a few tries now, roo, I hope I can remember how I did it. BRB.
Date: Thu Mar 13 07:15:15 2008
User: Arheus
Message:I should have taped the solution when I had the chance. I'll be damned if I remember how I did it. As far as I can say right now, I pulled the black jack out from column 1 and built on the 8C a little and then emptied column 4 because you really need a red jack. And I distinctly remember a clever move involving building a column starting with a black queen.
Date: Thu Mar 13 16:20:23 2008
User: kangaroo
Message:Thanks for the tips Arheus. That is different to my start of building on the 7S in col 5 and partially clearing cols 1,2 and 6 to send clubs home.
I've managed to clear column 4 and still have some wiggle room. Now to work on your "clever move"!
Date: Thu Mar 13 19:06:25 2008
User: dcn21
Message:Now 2/946. At least 200 of those attempts are mine. I've been working on it for nearly a week and I can't get anywhere. I keep looking for a position to use a csm but to no avail. Arheus, I've got to that position of column 4 cleared many times and I see no way to do anything, much less build a column starting with a black queen. I find this incredibly frustrating because I hate more than anything to seek hints, but I have to get on with my life. I'm amazed that, even though it took you 150 tries, you were still able to solve this hand. The same goes for fnuco who did it in a mere 100 attempts.
Date: Sat Mar 15 07:27:22 2008
User: roo.
Message:Now 2/998. I'll leave it to someone else to click it over to four figures.
Date: Sat Mar 15 19:33:11 2008
User: ix
Message:someone took you up on it
19867 1000 2 0.20
Date: Sat Mar 15 23:47:29 2008
User: Mastermind
Message:ix,somewhere in this thread you have written that you played anonimously and following the 'solver' moves won the game.Since the human solvers seem to be unable to repeat the 'win' and give solving hints to interested players who seem to be spending a lot of frustrating time on the game I think it would be worthwhile if you post the moves even if it means acknowledging again that in the battle between man and machine the machine won!
Date: Sun Mar 16 00:35:05 2008
User: ix
Message:Instead of posting them here I'd rather give them away on a one to one basis, on the condition that if they are used, they are used anonymously, to keep this games stats genuine. If you are interested I'm $kladke at montana dot com, with the $ replaced by an s. Fair?
Date: Sun Mar 16 03:03:31 2008
User: Mastermind
Message:Your offer is fair which does not necessarily mean I am taking it.When the project was on I solved several tough games and so did many others.This game alongwith four others was 'deemed' to be unwinnable and so it stays for me. The reason I made my post is explicit in the post itself.
Date: Sun Mar 16 03:27:18 2008
User: TNmountainman
Message:Speaking solely for myself, I haven't had time to tackle this one, and would like the opportunity before a solution is posted. I don't know when that'll be, so I like ix's suggestion. Mastermind, are you implying that you still think the game is unwinnable by 'mere' humans?
Date: Sun Mar 16 03:58:02 2008
User: Mastermind
Message:It is surely winnable as demonstrated by two players but my personal feeling is that the effort is not worth the result.
Date: Mon May 18 22:12:58 2020
User: Oded789
Message:Now 3/2260.
In a totally unrelated WWC thread from 2016, dcn21 was the third solver, in only 2 tries.
The first two solvers had 100+ tries, as they say above.
Link: 3rd solver of 6x6 5-19867
Date: Tue May 19 06:14:15 2020
User: kangaroo
Message:Read further up Oded, dcn21 had lots of tries! I'm giving it another go.
Date: Wed May 20 00:58:00 2020
User: Kaos
Message:Not a Kaos-friendly game. I’m sure there are somewhere between 50-100 attempts from me on this one but I’ve never been close.
Date: Wed May 20 09:20:12 2020
User: Mastermind
Message:Now 2364/4. It was solved under an alias and not as Mastermind. Well ,for that matter ,Mastermind is also an alias and not the name given me by my parents.
roo,the hints given by Arheus are wrong as pointed out by dcn21. He probably didn't remember and was confused. If you remember the audacious move I had made to solve #20736 (>300/1 at that time)during that 6x6 exercise and do ditto the game is easily solved. One hint I will give is completely ignore the red jacks.
Date: Wed May 20 12:02:40 2020
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:I am utterly shocked to learn that "Mastermind" is not your real, parent-given name. Looks like I've got even more conciliatin' to do than I thought.
Date: Fri May 22 01:35:34 2020
User: kangaroo
Message:Sorry Mastermind, my memory is not photographic enough to recall your audacious move twelve years ago!! I've thrown everything I have at it except the kitchen sink and I still need that, so I'll keep trying. I'm not yet at the stage where I played over 500 attempts to solve a level 7 8x3 which WRAC won in a Traditional, but getting there!
Ignore the red jacks completely - yeah, I can do that, and congrats on getting to the other side of this game!
Date: Fri May 22 09:10:15 2020
User: Mastermind
Message:Sorry,roo if I have teased you.At that time,I referred above,you had asked me which was the deciding move I made to solve the game and my reply was "sending two black kings to free cells and letting them stay there till the end ".In the present case it is sending the two red kings to free cells and letting them stay there till the end. Effectively you have to clear column 1,build under red 9 in column 4 which opens up winning possibilities.
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